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1/16/96 6:42:38 PM Opening ╥Chat Log 1/16/96╙ for recording. Nacorom : which can never be proven RABBIDANNY : Maybe he doesn't have the right...my interp is that he never knew, & you're right, who can p RABBIDANNY : rove that one interp is correct RABBIDANNY : At any rate, I don't assume that the patriarchs are also able to foresee the future JCommDebby : does anyone else have a question? RABBIDANNY : This is heretical to some...but I think one of the main points of the Biblical narrative, Na RABBIDANNY : is the humanity of the prophets RABBIDANNY : Make that the patriarchs Nacorom : Does anybody else care to ask or may i ask another? RABBIDANNY : One of the key points in the reading is that each generation builds upon the past RABBIDANNY : and adds its own interpretation... JCommDebby : lets ask the "peanut gallery"...does anyone else have a question? RABBIDANNY : Debby, that's the point of piece #3 JCommDebby : ok, shall i roll it? RABBIDANNY : Which you can enter in whenever Oaks Wild : Rabbi-is the narrative to be taken literally? RABBIDANNY : I take it sometimes literally, but more often, oaks, for the message therein...e.g., RABBIDANNY : the creation story tells something about the nature of human beings and their place RABBIDANNY : in the universe Oaks Wild : when is it to be tken literally-how can you decide? RABBIDANNY : any specific narrative you want to ask about, oaks? RABBIDANNY : How to decide: we study each piece RABBIDANNY : and look at it on its own terms, as well as how Jews have read it in the past Oaks Wild : the creation, the flood, the selling of Joseph for ex. RABBIDANNY : Flood is hard to take literally, particularly when there are so many other flood stories in RABBIDANNY : antiquity, but ours has a different message Gail 615 : isn't that how Conservative Judaism, came about, by adding interpretations? Oaks Wild : what is that message and how about evidence of the ark in turket on Mt ararat RABBIDANNY : Absolutely, Gail, we have to add or we lose RABBIDANNY : Oaks, I wouldn't take that ark as evidence that Biblical ark dimensions are for real [:-) Nacorom : Oaks There have been sightings of it so they say and one guy says he has a peice from it RABBIDANNY : Go Debby with #3, following on Gail JCommDebby : 3. "`Every generation,' the ancient Rabbis say, `which JCommDebby : did not JCommDebby : live to see the rebuilding of the Holy Temple must consider JCommDebby : itself as if it had witnessed its destruction.' Similarly JCommDebby : we may JCommDebby : say that every age which has not made some essential JCommDebby : contribution JCommDebby : to the erection of the Temple of Truth...is bound to look JCommDebby : upon JCommDebby : itself as if it had been instrumental in its demolition." JCommDebby : ---Solomon Schechter, "Seminary Addresses", p. 18 RABBIDANNY : In other words, we today have to add to the Torah RABBIDANNY : as best we can, without sacrificing the text but without Oaks Wild : do we accept that one flood destroyed the then world (other ancient works confirm a floo Oaks Wild : dstory RABBIDANNY : unnecessary distortion RABBIDANNY : maybe so, oaks, but the point is really that (a) God's experiment is failing, and (b) He ple RKAUFMAN7 : ? RABBIDANNY : dges to let the next phase go on all the same, in spite of our mistakes RABBIDANNY : that's the eternal covenant JCommDebby : rkaufman, ask away... RABBIDANNY : that's the underlying message of the flood story RKAUFMAN7 : unnecessary distortion, I think is the key....a biggest problem, is it not, is the diversity Nacorom : May the Allmighty always be with you i have to leave and pray Arvit SHALOM ALEICHEM RABBIDANNY : The Joseph story, Oaks, may be based on some pieces of reality, but my guess is that there Gail 615 : are they really mistakes, Rabbi? or are they the choices that God gave us? RKAUFMAN7 : of methodologies of adding to Torah in each generation ?!?!? no? JCommDebby : wait, gail, rkaufman's turn RABBIDANNY : is a long oral tradition behind it Nacorom : l RABBIDANNY : RK, yes it is a problem; if we only look at the text scientifically and not as a sacred text RABBIDANNY : then we don't have a text at all RKAUFMAN7 : in that example it would be my opinion that the name of the pharoh would be JCommDebby : did everyone else get bumped? RKAUFMAN7 : far less important than the message within the torah concerning the exodus EBolender : they got bored JC RKAUFMAN7 : they all lost interest in waiting Debbie JCommDebby : where is rabbi et al? JCommDebby : i was bumped and couldn't get back, JCommDebby : i suspect i was not alone... RKAUFMAN7 : he seemed to get bumped at the same time EBolender : oh, i agree on that RK. but nowadays people tend to look at these shows and use this JCommDebby : talk amongst yourselves! RKAUFMAN7 : /whap JCD EBolender : as a powerful tool to discredet the biblical accuracy. they say what else is wrong with it/ RKAUFMAN7 : a great deal of the message is in what we, ourselves, bring to its examination RKAUFMAN7 : even if such an exodus is somehow proven to never have happened... RKAUFMAN7 : it would not lessen the ideology in the teaching of its values to us EBolender : i know. in that show they say there is nothing written by egytians concerning Israelites EBolender : living in egypt. RKAUFMAN7 : my own approach is to consider as much modern scientific fact and information as possibble RKAUFMAN7 : while still rememberring... RKAUFMAN7 : that Torah , at least for me, evidences.... EBolender : in a sense we have to balance things out by utilyzing what tools we have RKAUFMAN7 : the signature of the Holy One RKAUFMAN7 : any and all information is of value EBolender : how come RK you and i are the only ones chatting? RKAUFMAN7 : but none of it has a veto Msaplay : hello EBolender : true on the veto EBolender : hello MSa EBolender : hi Schleeb1 and Bh. glad to see you two fine people are still here. JCommDebby : well, folks, we seem to have lost the rabbi momentarily due to an act of AOL... RKAUFMAN7 : momentarily is a gnerous term, to say the least RKAUFMAN7 : :) EBolender : an expensive one :) JCommDebby : i can run the next text item for you all to read... EBolender : o.k. JCommDebby : 4. "(The teaching...)'Turn it over, turn it over, for all JCommDebby : is in it' (Pirke Avot) has allowed sages and seekers of the JCommDebby : most varied sorts to see their own thought, influenced as JCommDebby : it may be by spiritual currents far from those of ancient JCommDebby : Israel, as the true meaning of their own religious legacy. JCommDebby : There are not "two" Torahs, a revealed and a hidden, but JCommDebby : rather both "one" and "many," as many as the ongoing JCommDebby : creativity of the Jewish people can provide." JCommDebby : ---Arthur Green, "Jewish Spirituality I," intro., p. xv Guide HMM : Evening, Marc :) RKAUFMAN7 : I mightask here who Arthur Green is? RKAUFMAN7 : hello Marc! JComm Marc : Hi everyone RKAUFMAN7 : and I might not get an answer when I do <g> EBolender : hello JCMarc. EBolender : lol RK JCommDebby : well, i would venture to say that he wrote a book! :-) RKAUFMAN7 : no??!! Guide HMM : Debby, you are so profound! ;) RKAUFMAN7 : any further inquiries EB ? Guide HMM : RK, check out Keyword ENCYCLOPEDIA .. perhaps Mr Green is there? :) EBolender : well, curious about the Torah RK? SteveSky3 : RKaufman, are you a rabbi ? RKAUFMAN7 : again, in what regard? RKAUFMAN7 : No, I am not EBolender : he is just well learned Steve RKAUFMAN7 : (but I play one on TV ?) Guide HMM : Welcome Back, Rabbi!!! *Cheers* JCommDebby : for those of you who just arrived, out rabbi got bumped... RABBIDANNY : Hello, I'm back, sorry for the cutoff RABBIDANNY : thank youthanksyou Guide HMM : Wasn't that a Kimmelman book? "Tuesday the Rabbi got Punted"?? ;D EBolender : ask ya later RK. i'm sure i'll see you on here again. now get off the stage!! RABBIDANNY : yall still here, I appreciate your patience RABBIDANNY : thanks guide JCommDebby : guide: HA HA!!! EBolender : i am RKAUFMAN7 : we were concerned for you RABBIDANNY : hahaindeed RABBIDANNY : Just an AOL system failure, rk Guide HMM : <grin> JCommDebby : welcome back! JCommDebby : i sent #4 RABBIDANNY : OK, where were we RKAUFMAN7 : so! you were saying? RABBIDANNY : thank you Debby SteveSky3 : Rabbi Danny, Which branch of Judaism Do you belong to ? RABBIDANNY : I'm sorrreeee rk, what was the q? RKAUFMAN7 : in regards to my question on methodologies of interpretations RABBIDANNY : I'm a conservative rabbi RKAUFMAN7 : and their diverisities RABBIDANNY : yes, rk RABBIDANNY : go ahead RKAUFMAN7 : well.... RKAUFMAN7 : you remarked upon our obligation to "add" to Torah thru ongoing interpretaion of tradition.. RABBIDANNY : and that's what makes the system dynamic rather than static RKAUFMAN7 : my question is in regards to the problems of the multivarious methods we use to do this RABBIDANNY : When it comes to changes in halakha, rk, there has to be some system in place to make RKAUFMAN7 : dynamic, al too often, to the point of schism RABBIDANNY : limits...in terms of the forty faces of the Torah, and interpretations of text, there is a l RABBIDANNY : ot more room RABBIDANNY : But some of the schisms are productive, not to say necessary SteveSky3 : Rabbi How do you feel about the Lubavitchers believing that their Rebbe will be resurected ? RABBIDANNY : As per the reading from Green, which Debby added in my absence: "There are not two RABBIDANNY : Torahs,. but both one and many, as many as we can provide RKAUFMAN7 : who, btw, is Arthur Green ? RABBIDANNY : Steve, that's a little off the topic, but I would like to respond RABBIDANNY : Green is former head of Recon Rabb College, now teaches at Brandeis SteveSky3 : please do RKAUFMAN7 : thank you RABBIDANNY : I think it has to be put in the context of the history of Chasidism; RABBIDANNY : every group thought their rebbe was the best candidate for Messiah EBolender : ? RABBIDANNY : and the Lubavs are no different, plus their rebbe built a big empire... SteveSky3 : But they actually believe in another ressurection ! JCommDebby : ebolander is next! SteveSky3 : And they are making judaism a laughing stock ! RABBIDANNY : That's the logical consequence, if you believe he really could be the messiah RABBIDANNY : I don't think too many non-Lubavs take it very seriously, STeve RKAUFMAN7 : ! RABBIDANNY : But I understand the problem...I wrote a lengthy piece for our local paper about it, email m RABBIDANNY : e if you want a copy Guide HMM : Queue: ?EB, !RK Alhurv : ? EBolender : sorry RABBI: this is off the topic, but what is a Rebbe? (excuse my gentile ignorance!!!!!) RABBIDANNY : rebbe, EB = chasidic rabbi/leader/righteous person/director of the flock JCommDebby : rkaufman? EBolender : thank you RABBIDANNY : yes, rk RKAUFMAN7 : i migh challenge that a logical conclussion is ressurection....nowhere does text that I know SteveSky3 : I think we are wittnessing the creation of a cult . An offshoot of mainstream Judaiism . RKAUFMAN7 : speak of ressurection regarding a Mashiach RABBIDANNY : I only mean that, RK, in the sense that if you believe he is the messiah he'll have to come RABBIDANNY : back again Guide HMM : Queue: ?Alhurv RABBIDANNY : I agree with you on this, rk Alhurv : I believein Judiasm as a dynamic and evolving, but how do we know when it begins to lead to RABBIDANNY : Maybe so, STeve RKAUFMAN7 : okay Alhurv : assiilationand loss of our culture RABBIDANNY : Changes in practice have to be justified based on connection with what has come before. Alhurv : I meant assimilation RABBIDANNY : My teacher, Byron Sherwin, likens Torah to a smorgasbord... RABBIDANNY : There are all kinds of things on the table, and you can find a lot of good stuff there RABBIDANNY : but you have to be willing to say that certain things don't belong on the table RABBIDANNY : and certain things have to be on your plate M4GOD : ? JCommDebby : we have to wrap things up now folks... RABBIDANNY : If any of you wanted to get in questions but couldn't, feel free to email me JCommDebby : our hour is up! M4GOD : what things don'T belong on the table JCommDebby : we will have another class next week JCommDebby : here is something to take with you... JCommDebby : 6. "Being bound to an order and stability of observance, to JCommDebby : a discipline of worship at set hours and fixed forms is a JCommDebby : celestial routine. Nature does not cease to be natural EBolender : thank you JCDebby, and RABBIDANNY. this was nice JCommDebby : because of its being subject to regularity of seasons. JCommDebby : Loyalty to external forms, dedication of the will is itself JCommDebby : a form of worship...Routine holds us in readiness for the RABBIDANNY : M4, I'll try to start with that one next time...or email with a short answer JCommDebby : moments in which the soul enters into accord with the JCommDebby : spirit...A good person is not he who does the right thing, JCommDebby : but he who is in the habit of doing the right thing." --- JCommDebby : Heschel, "God in Search of Man," p. 334f. M4GOD : please do RABBI Guide HMM : Thanks, Rabbi :) RABBIDANNY : Thanks again Debby, you were terrific; sorry about the glitch everybody RABBIDANNY : And thank you guide RABBIDANNY : clap clap clap Alhurv : 'Thank you rabbi EBolender : encore, encore, encore Guide HMM : G'night, folks! SteveSky3 : I pray only for one thing Goreret : Does anyone in here know about a recent article in a archaeological magazine about